In advance comments for this have been restricted to paid subscribers only. Plenty of "UFOs are aliens" believers are reasonable people, but there is a fervent diehard group who exist online who are not, and I'd like to avoid excess hate.
Eric, I have a cousin who was a radio operator in the US AF. She recounted having pilots talking to her about outrageously fast flying objects as they were in flight. The pilots were were neck and neck except for when the UFOs started doing loops and other fast maneuvers. Until one lands, which I don't they will, it's a moot point. She's a practical person. Personally, I don't believe UFOs and their pilots really want to contact us other than to do quick fly bye. If there are flying saucers, we're looking at very advanced technology. And I had been flying a space craft with very advanced tech and observed the madness that contines on earth, I would have left as quickly as possible.
The best argument for why ufos are not real aliens is that they are not at all common in non-western countries. I have never heard about ufos is the middle east, east asia or Africa. Often cultures in these places would look positively on mystical unexplained phenomena. But no, most UFO footage is from the US and Europe...
It's also pretty interesting that we gave almost everyone in many countries high-def cameras to carry around in their pockets and the evidence stayed about as questionable and edge-case based as before.
So like...do you think we should just ignore UAP stuff? Imo, unexplained phenomena shouldn't be ignored just cause some people think it's aliens and some other people are embarrassed for them. And you still need evidence for mundane explanations, which I don't see presented here either.
If your point is just that most JOURNALISTS are now creduless beyond usefulness, I agree with you. If your point is that the propoganda machine is trying to distract people with alien stories, I agree with you. But your point seems to be "we need more kneejerk skepticism about aliens in the general population" and I am not convinced.
The mundane explanation could just as easily be "UAP stories camoflage military technology/activity" which requires more attention being paid to determine, not less.
It's a good question - I'm certainly not against congressional hearings and the like. But I think it should be reported accurately what's actually going on, and the case is much weaker than the media make it out to be, mainly because they (a) like the clicks, and (b) most seem to not even know the original story of how all this came to be.
Yes, I agree the media is useless these days. I am a lot more interested in whatever the REAL story is with the UAPs than I am in whether anyone still thinks they're aliens...just like I am more interested in the REAL story of Hunter Biden's laptop than I am in whether anyone still thinks it was planted by russians, lol.
What was originally reported was that it was likely a Russian plant. This turns out not to be true (with high confidence). As to the contents of the laptop, AFAIK, both the original reporting and the final dispositon were the same: nothing of substance that was not already known.
I find accounts of paranormal experiences, including “close encounters” or alien abductions, very entertaining to think about, but my credence in them is quite low. But if you don’t want to just say people are making them all up but the experience does not tell us much about external reality, you have to believe that the human brain is capable of wandering into perceptual states that take us far afield from the regularly reliable way we perceive and interact with the world. And from what I can tell, while high stress, trauma, psychosis, or drug use can be associated with some of these things, some cases seem to be just a “normal” brain doing something wild for no obvious reason. That’s hard to accept. Even the simplest visual illusions that get perceived as some far-off UFO pierce our belief in perceptual correspondence to reality to be deeply uncomfortable. For one, it’s no surprise that the people most into these topics have usually experienced some medium-to-high strangeness at some point (Skinwalker Ranch for example) and desperately need to find a reason for what they experienced. And all the rest of us still find it hard to be comfortable with “hey there’s some weird lights in the sky, probably our eyes and brains are just not well equipped to process what we’re seeing” said with a shrug. I don’t fully discount the possibility of unexplained phenomena turning out to be stranger than we think, but the first culprit I would turn to as stranger than we think is our brains, as hard as that is to accept.
I have a somewhat different view of the situation. I agree that some people are jumping to conclusions too soon -- until we have verified physical evidence of the claims that David Grusch is making, we can't really draw any strong conclusions. I also agree with the general point, even if I disagree in details, that the UAP community is just ***filled*** with grifters and/or people who make wild claims based on mild evidence, Corbell being the prime example. The waters are very muddy.
But I also feel like you're downplaying the significance of this. I think the alternative to "what this guy is saying is true and world changing" is not "the media is just trying to clickgrab, there's nothing to pay attention to here", but "if what he's saying isn't true, a part of the government is (willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly) participating in a mis/disinformation campaign that is becoming more and more influential by the day". The reasons are David Grusch's credentials, who is backing him, and the effect his words have already had.
Imo credentials are sort of meaningless here, as a bunch of Defense people have believed some truly crazy things (see, e.g., Lacatski's paranormal phenomenon). Regarding what you linked (which is also linked in the article), as usual a huge amount is hinging on the lone anonymous source. The official complaint seems to be about reprisals, as far as I can tell, so we have to believe a single anonymous source that what is "urgent and credible" is specifically the UFO stuff, not the whistleblower report on retaliations for his own behavior. And, even if that is true, a bunch of Congress people are now gung-ho about aliens (as shown by how insanely fast government action for hearings was on this). They are more than willing to deem almost anything in this area "urgent and credible" - at least, credible enough for hearings. Why not an Intelligence Community inspector general?
I agree on credentials, the response from congress, and other things you mention not being strong evidence for the truth of Grusch's claims, I think everything you say in the post outlines why that is the case well.
But I do think that exactly *because* of those things the story still has a lot of weight even if everything Grusch is saying is bunk. In that case, the mildest interpretation of the story is that (i) a bunch of people in government programs misunderstood what they were working on and thought they were working on UFO technology, (ii) Grusch believed those people and collected those misunderstandings, and (iii) now this mirage is being discussed in congress and has many other consequences, including a stir in the media. If that is the case, well, I think that exposes significant issues in how the US government works -- how can a huge misinformation event arise out of nothing when there should have been been some validity checks at so many levels, from Grusch to congress?
The much more worrisome interpretation is that someone, either Grusch himself or people he interviewed, made up those claims and now are misleading the American government and public (and the world public, for that matter) for some reason. Which is even more significant. What I'm trying to say is that in either case I think the story is bigger than (and is not purely captured by) the media chasing after clicks.
Just can't resist citing Hüsker Dü: "Telling the same old story to everyone that she knows, she's just sitting in her room with books about UFOs". Beautiful song.
I have a cousin who was a radio operator in the USAF. She recounts stories of listening to pilots talking about extremely high speed spacecraft.. Reporting that what they saw didn't seem possible. They were in awe at the maneuverability. She's a practical woman who went to be run a veterinarian clinic. Bottom line, I think it's possible. I also don't think we're going to see one land. It they're up there and have very high tech they've already observed the earth and figured it wasn't a good idea to land on this crazy planet with the violence, wars and now climate change.By the way., she never sold or told what she'd heard first hand and seen to the press.
In advance comments for this have been restricted to paid subscribers only. Plenty of "UFOs are aliens" believers are reasonable people, but there is a fervent diehard group who exist online who are not, and I'd like to avoid excess hate.
Eric, I have a cousin who was a radio operator in the US AF. She recounted having pilots talking to her about outrageously fast flying objects as they were in flight. The pilots were were neck and neck except for when the UFOs started doing loops and other fast maneuvers. Until one lands, which I don't they will, it's a moot point. She's a practical person. Personally, I don't believe UFOs and their pilots really want to contact us other than to do quick fly bye. If there are flying saucers, we're looking at very advanced technology. And I had been flying a space craft with very advanced tech and observed the madness that contines on earth, I would have left as quickly as possible.
The best argument for why ufos are not real aliens is that they are not at all common in non-western countries. I have never heard about ufos is the middle east, east asia or Africa. Often cultures in these places would look positively on mystical unexplained phenomena. But no, most UFO footage is from the US and Europe...
It's also pretty interesting that we gave almost everyone in many countries high-def cameras to carry around in their pockets and the evidence stayed about as questionable and edge-case based as before.
Yes!! Maybe we need 16k to finally get them 😀
...also why now? Where's the fossil record of wrecks preceding those of the past 90 years?
And why do the modern-day crashes always occur in unpopulated areas where no one ever comes across them before the gubmint swoops in?
So like...do you think we should just ignore UAP stuff? Imo, unexplained phenomena shouldn't be ignored just cause some people think it's aliens and some other people are embarrassed for them. And you still need evidence for mundane explanations, which I don't see presented here either.
If your point is just that most JOURNALISTS are now creduless beyond usefulness, I agree with you. If your point is that the propoganda machine is trying to distract people with alien stories, I agree with you. But your point seems to be "we need more kneejerk skepticism about aliens in the general population" and I am not convinced.
The mundane explanation could just as easily be "UAP stories camoflage military technology/activity" which requires more attention being paid to determine, not less.
It's a good question - I'm certainly not against congressional hearings and the like. But I think it should be reported accurately what's actually going on, and the case is much weaker than the media make it out to be, mainly because they (a) like the clicks, and (b) most seem to not even know the original story of how all this came to be.
Yes, I agree the media is useless these days. I am a lot more interested in whatever the REAL story is with the UAPs than I am in whether anyone still thinks they're aliens...just like I am more interested in the REAL story of Hunter Biden's laptop than I am in whether anyone still thinks it was planted by russians, lol.
The REAL story of Hunter Biden's laptop is that there was nothing interesting on it.
Genuinely not trying to debate the laptop...but it's definitively NOT what was originally reported, so works for this analogy.
What was originally reported was that it was likely a Russian plant. This turns out not to be true (with high confidence). As to the contents of the laptop, AFAIK, both the original reporting and the final dispositon were the same: nothing of substance that was not already known.
Like I said.
Lol the last two lines... love it.
I find accounts of paranormal experiences, including “close encounters” or alien abductions, very entertaining to think about, but my credence in them is quite low. But if you don’t want to just say people are making them all up but the experience does not tell us much about external reality, you have to believe that the human brain is capable of wandering into perceptual states that take us far afield from the regularly reliable way we perceive and interact with the world. And from what I can tell, while high stress, trauma, psychosis, or drug use can be associated with some of these things, some cases seem to be just a “normal” brain doing something wild for no obvious reason. That’s hard to accept. Even the simplest visual illusions that get perceived as some far-off UFO pierce our belief in perceptual correspondence to reality to be deeply uncomfortable. For one, it’s no surprise that the people most into these topics have usually experienced some medium-to-high strangeness at some point (Skinwalker Ranch for example) and desperately need to find a reason for what they experienced. And all the rest of us still find it hard to be comfortable with “hey there’s some weird lights in the sky, probably our eyes and brains are just not well equipped to process what we’re seeing” said with a shrug. I don’t fully discount the possibility of unexplained phenomena turning out to be stranger than we think, but the first culprit I would turn to as stranger than we think is our brains, as hard as that is to accept.
Thanks for the post, Erik!
I have a somewhat different view of the situation. I agree that some people are jumping to conclusions too soon -- until we have verified physical evidence of the claims that David Grusch is making, we can't really draw any strong conclusions. I also agree with the general point, even if I disagree in details, that the UAP community is just ***filled*** with grifters and/or people who make wild claims based on mild evidence, Corbell being the prime example. The waters are very muddy.
But I also feel like you're downplaying the significance of this. I think the alternative to "what this guy is saying is true and world changing" is not "the media is just trying to clickgrab, there's nothing to pay attention to here", but "if what he's saying isn't true, a part of the government is (willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly) participating in a mis/disinformation campaign that is becoming more and more influential by the day". The reasons are David Grusch's credentials, who is backing him, and the effect his words have already had.
I don't have time to write out the argument in more details right now, but I'd happily do if anyone is interested. For now, I'll just leave this article from The Hill -- https://thehill.com/opinion/4038159-stunning-ufo-crash-retrieval-allegations-deemed-credible-urgent/ -- that outlines a lot of what I'd say.
Imo credentials are sort of meaningless here, as a bunch of Defense people have believed some truly crazy things (see, e.g., Lacatski's paranormal phenomenon). Regarding what you linked (which is also linked in the article), as usual a huge amount is hinging on the lone anonymous source. The official complaint seems to be about reprisals, as far as I can tell, so we have to believe a single anonymous source that what is "urgent and credible" is specifically the UFO stuff, not the whistleblower report on retaliations for his own behavior. And, even if that is true, a bunch of Congress people are now gung-ho about aliens (as shown by how insanely fast government action for hearings was on this). They are more than willing to deem almost anything in this area "urgent and credible" - at least, credible enough for hearings. Why not an Intelligence Community inspector general?
I agree on credentials, the response from congress, and other things you mention not being strong evidence for the truth of Grusch's claims, I think everything you say in the post outlines why that is the case well.
But I do think that exactly *because* of those things the story still has a lot of weight even if everything Grusch is saying is bunk. In that case, the mildest interpretation of the story is that (i) a bunch of people in government programs misunderstood what they were working on and thought they were working on UFO technology, (ii) Grusch believed those people and collected those misunderstandings, and (iii) now this mirage is being discussed in congress and has many other consequences, including a stir in the media. If that is the case, well, I think that exposes significant issues in how the US government works -- how can a huge misinformation event arise out of nothing when there should have been been some validity checks at so many levels, from Grusch to congress?
The much more worrisome interpretation is that someone, either Grusch himself or people he interviewed, made up those claims and now are misleading the American government and public (and the world public, for that matter) for some reason. Which is even more significant. What I'm trying to say is that in either case I think the story is bigger than (and is not purely captured by) the media chasing after clicks.
I love that you debunked ufos 🤣
As it turns out, I know the current owner of Skinwalker Ranch (Bigelow sold it to Brandon Fugal in 2016) and once met Travis Taylor and the whole Skinwalker Ranch crew for a story on what’s really going on down there: https://www.utahbusiness.com/why-a-millionaire-real-estate-mogul-bought-skinwalker-ranch/
Just can't resist citing Hüsker Dü: "Telling the same old story to everyone that she knows, she's just sitting in her room with books about UFOs". Beautiful song.
I have a cousin who was a radio operator in the USAF. She recounts stories of listening to pilots talking about extremely high speed spacecraft.. Reporting that what they saw didn't seem possible. They were in awe at the maneuverability. She's a practical woman who went to be run a veterinarian clinic. Bottom line, I think it's possible. I also don't think we're going to see one land. It they're up there and have very high tech they've already observed the earth and figured it wasn't a good idea to land on this crazy planet with the violence, wars and now climate change.By the way., she never sold or told what she'd heard first hand and seen to the press.